TOPICS
Learning to Follow Directions
Bruce:
(From previous dialogue): “EXACTLY what is
required to be saved?”
KEVIN:
I find it hard to
believe that no one you have posed this question to can answer it. The Bible says in Romans 10:9,10
that if you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that He
was raised from the dead, you will be saved (paraphrased).
BRUCE:
Well,
Kevin, just like I told Tom Winters and dozens of other fundamentalists I
have presented this to, YOU NEED TO FOLLOW DIRECTIONS! Everyone will try to dole-out the typical creed they are
taught to recite in church, but that does not answer the question. In fact, Kevin, there are numerous
different variants on so-called “salvation” discerned in the New
Testament, and many of these are incompatible with one another. For example, you quote from Paul
in the Romans 10 passage above, but that is the only passage you quoted, either for
or against your view. That’s
a typical ploy of bibliolaters--you just pick-and-choose among passages
and select what they need in order to help their own cause, but
conveniently ignore the problematic passages that give different views. Well, I won't allow you to get away with such salad bar tactics,
Kevin!
So
let’s look at some other examples and compare them:
Yes, we are:
[Ephesians
2:8-9] v8 “For by grace are
ye saved through faith; ... v9 Not
of works...” (my emphasis)
[Galations
2:16] “Knowing that a man
is not justified by the works
of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.” (my emphasis)
[Titus 3:5] “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us...” (my
emphasis)
See also John 3:16 and Romans 3:20-26
So, according to these verses (and
many others) we are indeed saved by “faith” alone through “grace.”
Indeed, Paul states the matter quite specifically that
“works” ARE NOT necessary for salvation. I should also add that doing good
deeds (or works) is not given as any precondition to salvation in your Romans 10 quote
either, Kevin. All good
enough, but let us proceed.
No, we are not:
[James 2:14] “What doth it profit, my
brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” (my
emphasis)
[James 2:17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[James 2:18] But someone will say, "You have faith; I have
deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my
faith by what I do.
[James 2:21-22] Was not our ancestor Abraham
justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought
to completion by the works. (my emphasis)
[James
2:24] “Ye see then how that
by works a man is justified, and not
by faith only.” (my emphasis)
[James 2:26] “For
as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (my
emphasis)
The Book of James is a rather
embarrassing problem for those who contend that you are “saved by faith
alone.” Is it any wonder
that the champion Christian proponent of “faith only,” Martin Luther,
called the Book of James an “epistle of straw”? It runs directly counter to a
cardinal teaching of Protestantism. But
since the Book of James does appear
in the Bible, Christians cannot just sweep it under the carpet as though
it doesn’t exist like they attempt to do when facing other
embarrassments from evidence outside the Bible.
But wait! It’s not just in James where we
see contradictions with the “faith only” view!
More ... No, we are not:
[Psalms 62:12] “For
thou renderest to every man according
to his work.” (my emphasis)
[Corinthians 5:10] “We must all appear before the
judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in
his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (my emphasis)
[Romans
2:5-6] “The righteous
judgement of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds” (my
emphasis)
[Revelation 20:12-15]
“I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened ... and the dead were judged out of those things that were
written in the books, according to their works {notice it does not say “faith”} ...
and they were judged every man according to their works...” (my
emphasis)
See
also Matthew 7:21, Luke 10:36-37, and Romans 2:13
So
which is it, Kevin, “by faith alone” or “by works”? Well, maybe we should look in the gospels and see what advice
Jesus is made to say:
Jesus’ demands for salvation (still no “faith” mandated):
[Mark 10:17] [v17b] “Good teacher, what
must I do to win eternal life?
[v18] Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
[v19] You know the commandments: do
not kill; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not give false
evidence; do not defraud; honor your father and mother. [v20] ‘But teacher,’ he replied, ‘I have kept all of
these since I was a boy.’ [v21] ... ‘One thing you lack,’ he
[Jesus] said. ‘Go, sell everything you have, and give to the poor, and you will
have treasure in heaven; then come and follow me.” (my emphasis)
How
many Christians follow this strict and decidedly inconvenient path
commanded from Jesus himself? I
know of none, save perhaps Mahatma Gandhi, and he was a Hindu.
But we are only
scratching the surface here.
There are many more sticky problems, such as
whether baptism is required or not; whether those who have not heard of Jesus are “saved” or not; whether a person once saved is always saved; whether or not the “God(s)” of the Bible even
intend for all people to be
saved or not; the problem of alleged “predestination,” “election,”
“universalism,” and others. These
are all issues that demonstrate contradictory passages (for and against)
within your beloved Bible.
The following
is a detailed list of the problems associated with Christian claims to the
"requirements of salvation," as put together by a friend of
mine, Mannie Mulder:
1) Matthew
10:22, Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13 all say that he who endures to the
end, will be saved. Mark 16:16 tells us that only he who believes
and is baptized will be saved. John 3:5 says that only he that is
born of water and Spirit will be saved. Acts 16:31 tells us that he
who believes in the Lord Jesus will be saved [AND his house, whether it is
required of those in his house to believe or not it doesn't say].
Acts 2:21 says that he who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:9 proclaims that he who confesses with his mouth "Jesus is
Lord" and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead
will be saved. 1John 4:7 states that he who loves is born of God and
will thus be saved. In John 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons
will be saved. Which is it? [Note: while these are not mutually
exclusive, the answer may be "all of the above," but then the
question becomes Why does the Bible not say so?
Why present it as alternatives?]
2) Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 say God wants all to be saved.
John
12:40, Acts 2:21, Acts 2:39, Romans 9:27 and Romans 10:13 confirm that
some will *not* be saved. Revelation 14:1-4 says heaven will be
inhabited by only 144,000 virgin men who have not been defiled by women
[women defile men?!]. Which is it? [Note: these are mutually
exclusive, and cannot all be true.]
3) Romans 2:13 says doers of the law *will* be justified, while
Romans 3:20
and Galatians 3:11 says doers of the law *will not* be justified.
Which is
it? [Note: as these two are mutually exclusive, both cannot be true.]
4) John 5:38-47 says that men have a choice as to whether or not to
receive Jesus, while John 6:44 says no one can come to Jesus unless he is
drawn by the Father. Which is it? [Note: as these two are mutually
exclusive, both cannot be true.]
5) John 5:24 tells us that believers do not come into judgement,
while
Matthew 12:36, 2Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27, 1Peter 1:17, Jude 1:14-15
and Revelation 20:12-13 tells us that ALL persons [including believers]
will be judged. Which is it? [Note: as these two are mutually
exclusive, both cannot be true.]
6) Luke 14:26 states that no one can be a disciple of Jesus unless
he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters, but John 3:15
says
whoever hates his brother is a murderer. Which is it? [Note:
as these two
are mutually exclusive, both cannot be true.]
7) Matthew 7:21 states that not everyone who calls on the name of
the Lord
will be saved, while Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 say that whoever calls on
the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:39 again states that
those God
calls to himself will be saved. Which is it? [Note: as these
are mutually
exclusive, all cannot be true.]
The
mere fact that so many divergent themes and discrepancies occur, and on
the most important point in your whole tenet, salvation, is one of the
primary reasons why you see thousands of different and mutually exclusive
sects of Christianity in the world today; each with their own interpretation about what is and is not required for
“salvation”--they simply pick-and-choose
among the passages they like and conveniently disregard those that don’t
work within the framework of how they think things should be. That is why I asked you to present
all the textual evidence for your
position, Kevin, and warned you to “not contradict any other passages in the Bible”; something you evidently did not
understand. But perhaps you
would like to take another shot at it?
Assuming Truth to Prove Truth. .
.
KEVIN:
I
think the bigger problem is you’re going to want PROOF. I think the above verse [Rom 10:9-10] is simple and
straight forward and because of that it goes right by you.
BRUCE:
First,
Kevin, if you are going to contend that your and only your professed religion is true, and that your and only your professed God is true, and that I must bow down in humble
acknowledgement to your and only your professed dogma, then I not
only “want PROOF,” I DEMAND IT! Indeed,
as the phrase goes, “put up or shut up!”
Why
should I believe yours or anyone else’s claims of “truth” for their
respective religious dogma over all others?
Circular reasoning, special pleading and wishful thinking are not proof of anything. You are the one making the
extraordinary claims of certainty for the reality of your god, so it is
your responsibility to offer proof to that end. If you cannot, then by all means
go on believing whatever you like, but leave the rest of the world out of
it.
But
that’s always been the problem with the bloody history of Christianity,
hasn’t it? They just
can’t keep to themselves. It
is the sheer arrogance and intolerance of such higher-than-thou attitudes
that incites animosity, discrimination, segregation and subjugation. Christianity has proven it’s
destructiveness beyond doubt for the entirety of its existence (although
it’s not alone), and the intolerance continues unabated today.
Been There, Done That . . .
Second,
I have already been where you are, Kevin.
I have heard all the sermons.
I have recited, and at one time believed, the same passages that
you parrot now. When my
pastors poured-on their rhetoric I used to eat it up, thinking as I did
that I was part of some special
group that was above everyone else (through Jesus), and that those who
didn’t believe were somehow inferior, or misguided by the devil, or just
shells of people with no direction, or living in denial. But after years of studying the
world as it really is I came to
realize, quite to my dismay, that it was I who had been misguided by a
self-serving Christian establishment, a multi-billion-dollar industry that
seeks to control everything we do; to infiltrate every facet of our lives
in order to impose their truth;
to wipe-out any and all beliefs that do not conform with their narrow
sectarian world view. It
sickens me to know that I used to think that way, completely oblivious to
the harm I was helping to propagate against humanity. My goodness, what arrogance!
The
atrocities people inflict upon one another in the name of their respective
gods truly breaks my heart. When
O’ When will the Inquisitors learn something from history? It’s funny, our forefathers recognized it, understood it,
and tried to do something about it by devising the first godless
Constitution in the history of the world; a Constitution that begins “We
the people” and specifically excludes creeds to any mysterious god(s)--gods
that no one can show a speck proof for their existence. Unfortunately, people just don’t
get it when it comes to their
own religions; they see intolerance and persecution against themselves by
all others but never dare step in front of the mirror themselves.
Yes,
Kevin, the TRUTH is “simple” and “straight forward,” and because
of that (or perhaps in spite of that), “it goes right by you!”
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