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This dialogue requires a short synopsis of events that preceded it on
the email discussion forum, Errancy.
Mr. Joe Carter, a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible is
the inerrant "Word of God," asked the question: "What
would make you believe in God?" He was quickly given many
examples from non-believers and former believers outlining
such requirements. One person suggested the resurrection of a
close friend they had lost, and another cited the resurrection of his
daughter (who died at age 2 as the result of a traffic
accident).
As a former believer, I also responded to the query with,
first, a re-post of my A Firefighter
Speaks-Out essay, followed by further commentary on the remarks from
the two individuals positing a need to see their "friend" and
"daughter" resurrected, respectively. Knowing, as
I do, that Christians use the "selfishness" excuse for why
these sort of "miracles" do not happen in today's world, I
specifically do not ask for the resurrections of my own lost
friends and loved ones; rather, I ask for the resurrections of friends
and loved ones of "Christians"!
Following this line of reasoning, I quoted from a previous
"debate" I had had with a Christian minister from Texas who
had cited, of all things, the Wedgewood Baptist Church shooting
in Ft. Worth, Texas a couple years ago (a man just opened fire on the
church congregation during Sunday services, killing six and injuring
many more) as an example of how this massacre actually resulted in "thousands
of people becoming believers."
My response to that was:
"Yes, of course, this was all part of God's
"higher good," just as Columbine here in Colorado was part
of some "higher good" so Christians could make a martyr myth
about Cassie Barnall ("she said, yes") that NEVER ACTUALLY
HAPPENED! Jesus takes the lives of innocent people in dramatic,
seemingly horrific, ways "so that others might be inspired by it
and be saved!" Well, if Jesus is willing to perform
"miracles" that require people to get murdered (taking of
life, but for a higher cause...) as part of his "master
plan," then I would like to ask why He will not (or cannot)
perform like-minded "miracles" in the form of
"resurrecting the dead" (just one!) in order that others
"might be inspired by it and be saved"? Honestly, if
the murder of innocent people in a church during Sunday services is
enough to "bring thousands" to belief, then how many
millions would be "inspired" and "brought to
salvation" if, say, just one of those people killed in that
massacre were to be suddenly resurrected from the dead?"
For more on this theme see my Just One
Child challenge.
In any event, it was after reading through the above items that Mr.
Carter posited some questions directly to me, which appear below with my
response to him.
JOE CARTER:
Mr. Monson, your post reminds me that for many people these discussions
are not just arguments made to waste time but searches for the Truth.
Obviously, you and I have drawn different conclusions but I empathize
with your position and wanted to make a few points:
The minister who said that the massacre was for God's "higher
good" should be taken out and horse whipped. God may tolerate evil
to exist for a time but to attempt to dismiss it for some evangelical
purpose is the height of insensitivity.
BRUCE:
Really? Most Christians I talk with have no problem whatsoever
assigning a "higher purpose" to the death of children and
other innocent people and wildlife around the world be it from
earthquakes, floods, plane crashes, disease, or an 18-month old boy who
hangs himself in a Venetian-blind cord right in his own crib after his
mother puts him down for an afternoon nap. Just attend any funeral
service for a child and watch the minister pronounce that "Jesus
must have had a good reason to 'call this child' back to heaven so early
in life ... but he's with Jesus now, and he's happy..."
Translation: a "higher good."
This is actually a defense mechanism of the human psyche called
"Denial" and also "Bargaining." The pain of
the loss is so potent, and the finality so manifest, that the person
must find an escape mechanism to cope with the loss. They do that
by denying that the death is the end and they "Bargain" with
themselves as to how, one day, they will be "reunited" with
this lost loved one in a happy pie-in-the-sky reality where all the
suffering is gone. Of course, this is also just an assumption
since, even if the Christian salvation scenario is true, what makes you
think that those long lost loved ones actually made-the-cut to pass
heaven's gates? What makes you think that your loved ones didn't
go the other direction? As such, how could you be
truly happy knowing
that your son or mother or best friend is burning in hell at the very
moment you are enjoying the good life with Jesus? That's not
love, kindness, justice and compassion, that's sadomasochism at its
ugliest.
And even if all Christians do not see such events in this light, then
explain how it is that so many self proclaimed "true
Christians" can have such dramatically divergent views on not only
this issue but EVERY issue, be it birth control, gun control,
executions, abortion and numerous others. Why should I accept your
version of Christianity, Joe, and not those of this minister I was
debating? Aside from his indoctrinated views, he seemed like a
nice enough fellow. He's convinced he is right and he's convinced
of that because he has "felt the Holy Spirit" and it moves him
to that end.
Of course, Jesus didn't lift one divine finger to
"inspire" the mother of that little boy to take note that
something was wrong: "...tap ... tap ... tap ... this is Jesus
... your child is strangling to death ... go check on him..."
CARTER:
I am confused about your pos[i]tition. Are you saying that you believe
in Christ yet reject him or that you do not believe he exist[s] at all?
BRUCE:
No, I most assuredly *do not* believe in Jesus or any other extravagant claims made by any other religions or cultures positing divine status
upon their own heroes and icons. I don't believe in them because
there is simply no evidence to support their reality. But I USED
TO BELIEVE! I used to believe with all my heart and I did so for
nearly seventeen years. In every sense I was a "true
Christian" who was baptized at birth and "saved" right in
my own living room, and believed that Jesus was my "personal
savior." And I would happily inform others about that!
Many Christians confuse the
meaning of my essay; they think it is a letter to Jesus when in fact it
is a letter to THEM (and originally to my Christian firefighter friends) showing how untenable
their position is when they profess the "truth of Jesus" to
the world as though it is some incontrovertible fact that everyone else
must bow down to in acceptance, and all without a shred of evidence to
support their extraordinary claims. They miss the subject of the
essay because they come to the table with an a priori assumption
that Jesus not only exists but that he is in fact "God."
It doesn't occur to them that THAT premise is the very thing I'm
challenging them on! When my essay was posted on the Infidels website I received more than
200 emails from people around the world. Only about fifteen of
these were from Christians trying to defend their position, of which the
minister I quoted previously was one. Interestingly, every single
one of the Christians responding missed the point! In every case
they did so because of their a priori assumptions about Jesus,
and they began their arguments from that point on. To prove the
point, NONE of the supportive emails I received from non-Christians and
former Christians failed to understand the point; they understood
because they no longer carried that presumptive baggage.
But even though I no longer believe, WHAT I AM SAYING to the Christians
is that I am completely open to the possibility that I am wrong, and to
demonstrate that point I offer a distinct situation that, should it
occur, would, for me, be sufficient evidence to warrant my believing
everything else "on faith" (just like the disciples and the
masses of early "witnesses" we are told about in the gospels).
Do you think there are not thousands of "widowed mothers" who
have not "lost their only son" in the world? Do you
think that there are none among them who call themselves
"Christian" and who have not read of this miraculous event in
Luke 7? Do you think that none of them have expressed longing and
prayed that Jesus would "resurrect their only son"?
Moreover, what is the response of "everyone" in the story
after Jesus is alleged to have resurrected this woman's son during the
funeral procession? According to Luke 7:16:
Everyone was filled with awe and PRAISED GOD.
'A great prophet has arisen among us,'
they said; 'GOD HAS SHOWN HIS CARE FOR HIS
PEOPLE.' (my emphasis)
Well, if so many people in 1st c. Palestine witnessed
this historic event and "praised God" and were exalting at how
"God has shown care for his people" then why should we expect
any less today? It's good enough for them but not for us, two
millennia removed? They get the physical evidence while we
"just have to have faith"? Wouldn't you, as a Christian,
proclaim such a resurrection as "a supreme miracle from Jesus"
if it were to actually happen? Wouldn't you use it as
"evidence" to convince others? Of course you would and
THAT is the ONLY thing that will satisfy my skepticism. I'm not
asking for anything special that is not done or promised could be done
in your own Bible, so let's see it!
If Jesus is real and Christian scripture is true then this should be a
simple task for ANY BELIEVING CHRISTIAN to prove. If you cannot
then you have no business going around professing YOUR version of
"the truth" to anyone; least of all traipsing deep into the
rain forests of the world in order to "witness the truth of
Jesus" to the indigenous tribal cultures living there, and in the
process not only destroying their cultural identity (a travesty) but
decimating them with the diseases you bring along for the ride for which
they are not immune (evolution in action, btw).
In a sense, Joe, I'm calling your bluff (with "you" being used
generically for all Christians) and demanding that you put-up-or-shut-up because you
have caused far more harm to the world than good, and those multiple
billions you pour into your churches, land acquisitions, book publishing
corporations and mass media industries could be much better served in
other areas of the world where people are starving, drinking
contaminated water, lagging in education and even the most basic of
sanitation and medical care. These people don't need missionaries,
they need water treatment plants, agricultural development, medical
facilities and inoculations, schools, teachers, etc., etc., etc.
You already have all the money, but you'd rather sit in the posh air
conditioned comforts of your church, hear your choir sing praises to the
love of Jesus and "pray" that starvation will end in third
world countries ("if it be His will" of course) but you don't
see the hypocrisy in the act.
Focus On The Family
is stationed right here in my home city of Colorado Springs, CO.
You might recall the recent events in that organization where, first,
John Paulk, the "reformed gay" director of their EXODUS
program (a program to help "reform" gays from their errant
ways--as if they are some deviant subculture in need of "spiritual
healing") was caught in a gay bar, and rather than being honest
with himself, he lied about it! Next, Dobson's fellow radio show
co-host, Mike Trout, was caught having "extramarital
relations" with an undisclosed woman (I guess they didn't want to
say "prostitute"; or was it the wife of a fellow employee?; an
office girl at Focus?) and had to exit the show.
Not long after these events Dobson sent letters to all
of his 2.4 million Christian supporters on their database (I wonder what
it cost just to do that?) claiming the organization was "in
a state of financial crisis" and they simply cannot maintain status
quo on the paltry "30.3
MILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH" in donations currently coming in
and that people needed to step-up with the donations and get back to the
"30.8 MILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH standard ... or else 'key programs'
would suffer."
Are you kidding me?!!! This is just one of some 160+ Christian
organizations in the Colorado Springs area alone (not counting the more
than 400 churches here), and they are "in a state of financial
crisis"! Oh, and did I mention that this is all TAX FREE
MONEY? Begging your pardon, but there are third world countries
that "starve" on less than Focus' monthly income for an entire
year of existence! So much for scripture, I guess:
Luke 18:22-23: (Jesus to the "rich
man" who had been following all the commandments already but asks
Jesus what it is that he still lacks for salvation) 22 ...Jesus
said 'There is still ONE THING you lack: SELL EVERYTHING you
have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then
come and follow me.'
Other Passages:
Luke 11:41; 12:20, 33; 14:33; 18:25
Mark 10:23
Matt. 10:9-10, 19-21, 23-24
Phil. 3:8
"True Christians" (TM), as we are told (by Jesus) in the gospels, should have nothing to their name, not
one thin dime, and yet Christianity is a multi-billion dollar industry
that siphons money from the masses; they pay no taxes; they buy up choice
property and build megalithic churches and corporate ministry buildings;
they don't stop hunger and homelessness even in the U.S. let alone
around the world (even though they could easily do so if they redirected
their funds in the proper direction); and yet they constantly beg for
more money, more land, and more control of everyone's lives, especially
our children in the public schools.
Well, I'm sorry, Joe, but if you are not part of the solution then you
are
most assuredly part of the problem if you believe you are a Christian
who holds "the truth" and you feel that you should
"inform" the world of that "truth" without any
concern for the very real and very abundant harm that you are promoting
through your ghastly doctrines.
CARTER:
I am curious as to whether you believe people "are basically
good"?
BRUCE:
Yes, I do, but then "good" is a relative term that is
different from culture to culture and from time period to time period.
What is "good" to you may not be "good" to someone
in a different culture and a different place in time. Gandhi, for
example, was one of the most "good" people ever to walk the
earth (better than the Jesus of the gospels I might add) and yet
Christian theology claims he is burning in hellfire and damnation
because he "failed" to accept Christ as his personal savior.
Conversely, Hitler, who DID accept Jesus as his personal savior, and who
thought he was doing the will of god in his eradication of Jews, IS
SAVED and enjoying the benefits of heaven at this moment because of
that, even though most Christians have a moral problem with that very
prospect -- a fact that I cite
as evidence that most "Christians" are actually better than
their religion. Moreover, Christians and Jews alike do not
follow the "commands from God" outlined in their own Bible!
And do you know why? Because you are more humanist than you admit
and common sense tells you that these "laws" are silly,
unjust, barbaric and primitive.
I work with many "good" people who happen to also be
Christians (and many who are not Christians). The Christians will
proclaim that the reason they are "good" is because of Jesus,
but I say they would be good regardless of the religion they professed
to, if any at all. In the words of the famed physicist, Steven
Weinberg:
With or without religion, good people can
behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do
evil--that takes religion.
CARTER:
The pain and suffering that people feel should not be dismissed. Though
I regret that you weren't able to find the answers to your questions in
Christianity, I hope that you will someday find solace someday for the
pain you have obviously endured.
BRUCE:
This is the problem, Joe! What makes you think I am in any sort of
agony or pain over such deaths? Do you really think I could do the
job I do if I were? Death is simply the natural end to life and
the law of averages GUARANTEES that people (even children, suckling
infants and fetuses in the womb) will die, and do die, in seemingly
freak accidents, natural disasters, epidemics and others of the like, on
a regular and quite unbiased basis in our densely populated society.
It was when I finally came to understand this that I truly "saw the
light" because it was then that I no longer had to anguish and try
to rationalize such deaths with some "higher purpose" that was
beyond my understanding (the stock answer from my pastors and Sunday
school teachers). I no longer had to equate such things as being
the
end-product of some superstitious "Original Sin" that brought
evil and death into the world (and all from a mythical forbidden fruit
fable found in an ancient text filled with other mythical stories that
are curiously similar to hundreds of other ancient tales from Egypt,
Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece and others--give me a break!). I no
longer had to feel guilty for things I didn't do!
The fact is, Joe, it is my position that I, as a secular humanist living
in the real world, deal with death MUCH BETTER than do my Christian
counterparts. While the death of children is painful (especially
when they die right in your arms in spite of your best efforts to save
them), and you feel for the family, it is grotesque and unhealthy to
assign some "divine meaning" behind such events. Indeed,
if such a thing were actually true then THAT would make your god a
monster, not a "loving, kind, just, savior."
And do you think I "dismiss" the pain and suffering people
experience? Ha! I'm the one out there doing something about it,
with my own hands! I don't "pray" that that little girl
having an acute asthma attack is going to improve through the will of
Jesus; no, I am doing something about the problem with medications on
the understanding that modern medical science and decades of research on
the pathophysiology of respiratory disease can make a difference in this
little girl's future existence IN THIS LIFE! I am a
believer in life BEFORE death and I am doing my part
(small that it may be) to make a difference in the quality of life for
the people who call for my help.
But
having said all this, Joe, by all means, please, prove me wrong with the
resurrection of JUST ONE SINGLE CHILD and you will not
only "save me" from the fires of "hell" but you will
no doubt save many more of my ilk (i.e., heathens) because, with
evidence in hand, I will devote the remainder of my life to evangelizing
the truth of this event to other atheists, agnostics and people
professing belief in the thousands of other "false religions"
in the world. But more importantly, in my view, you will make one
family happy beyond their wildest dreams in returning their lost child
to their empty arms. How about Joe Musselwhite's (footnote 1) lost child?
This is the essence of the issue at it's core and one that is very
disturbing to Christians; I should know, I used to be one and I see it
all
the time.
Yours,
Bruce Monson
(1) Joe Musselwhite is an atheist who
has been in debate with Joe Carter through an open forum in their local
newspaper. Joe and his wife lost their two-year-old daughter in a
tragic car accident where they were hit by a drunk driver.
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