Extra Rewards in Heaven For Those Who Believe Without signs and wonders?

Bruce (from dialogue with Roy Casanova): But as my 'Personal Appeal to Jesus' states, all it would take for me to believe again is for just one single child to be resurrected from the dead, just one.

AMANDA: Our reward in heaven will be greater than the disciples because we believe with faith whereas the disciples had signs and proofs.

BRUCE: And by what convoluted process did you arrive at that self-serving conclusion? If the Christian heaven is all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips, the ultimate-eternal-bliss, the all-I-ever-wanted-and-more, then what additional reward could be awaiting you that those disciples who allegedly witnessed the super-miracles (e.g., resurrections, as performed by Big-J himself) will not receive? Do you get to play an extra game of Go Fish with Jesus on Friday afternoons? Couldn't this be looked upon as favoritism, and cause some jealousy? Heck, it might even lead to another war in heaven! Revelation 12:7 "And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back . . ." If there can be war in heaven, perhaps it's not all it's cracked up to be, eh Amanda? Perhaps you should look into Nirvana!

AMANDA: You obviously don't seem to understand importance of faith.

BRUCE: And you obviously don't seem to understand that, even from a purely Christian theological perspective, belief without physical evidence (i.e., faith) was never an exclusionary condition Jesus applied for salvation or discipleship. (Note: let me remind you, again, that this is a theological discussion only--there is no evidence that any of these gospel accounts ever actually occurred; or even that the Jesus of the gospels ever existed, let alone performed all the miracles he is made to perform by the anonymous authors of those gospels.)

Thomas, we are told, required physical proof before he could believe (John 20:25); as such, would Thomas still have been "saved" had the physical proof been denied him by Jesus? Perhaps a more important point, theologically, is that after Thomas saw the physical proof he did believe! (hey, what do you know, it's the same conditions I require!) So is Thomas disqualified by Jesus for his lack of belief without seeing? Is he condemned to the same fate as Judas Iscariat? No, he is not! All Jesus says is "blessed are those that believe without seeing" but in nowise are we to understand that Thomas has been excluded from salvation or even discipleship--he simply required more physical evidence to convince him than some others required, and he got it! Jesus was simply dealing with Thomas based on his individual needs in order for him to "believe."

In fact, if we are to believe Mark 16:9-14 ("but when they were told [by Mary Magdala] that he [Jesus] was alive ... that she had seen him, they [disciples] did not believe it."); and Matthew 28:17 ("they worshiped him; but some doubted."), we must conclude that Thomas was not alone in his doubt, and that others (among the eleven, no less) doubted until they had seen physical proof. It seems, then, that doubt and little faith did not disqualify any of them from being disciples.

Do yo understand my point, Amanda? Would you suggest, then, that Thomas or the other "doubting" disciples were any less "saved" than those disciples who believed without proof? (John 20:29) Keep this point in mind because we'll be revisiting it (among several other problems you have not considered) when I address your quotation of Luke 16:31 a little later on.

Bruce Monson

www.freethoughtfirefighters.org

Adherence to Life BEFORE Death

	*Extra Rewards in Heaven For Those Who Believe Without 'Signs and Wonders'?*	Home

	Bruce (from dialogue with Roy Casanova): But as my 'Personal Appeal to Jesus' states, all it would take for me to believe again is for just one single child to be resurrected from the dead, just one. AMANDA: Our reward in heaven will be greater than the disciples because we believe with faith whereas the disciples had signs and proofs. BRUCE: And by what convoluted process did you arrive at that self-serving conclusion? If the Christian heaven is all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips, the ultimate-eternal-bliss, the all-I-ever-wanted-and-more, then what additional reward could be awaiting you that those disciples who allegedly witnessed the super-miracles (e.g., resurrections, as performed by Big-J himself) will not receive? Do you get to play an extra game of Go Fish with Jesus on Friday afternoons? Couldn't this be looked upon as favoritism, and cause some jealousy? Heck, it might even lead to another war in heaven! Revelation 12:7 "And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back . . ." If there can be war in heaven, perhaps it's not all it's cracked up to be, eh Amanda? Perhaps you should look into Nirvana! AMANDA: You obviously don't seem to understand importance of faith. BRUCE: And you obviously don't seem to understand that, even from a purely Christian theological perspective, belief without physical evidence (i.e., faith) was never an exclusionary condition Jesus applied for salvation or discipleship. (Note: let me remind you, again, that this is a theological discussion only--there is no evidence that any of these gospel accounts ever actually occurred; or even that the Jesus of the gospels ever existed, let alone performed all the miracles he is made to perform by the anonymous authors of those gospels.) Thomas, we are told, required physical proof before he could believe (John 20:25); as such, would Thomas still have been "saved" had the physical proof been denied him by Jesus? Perhaps a more important point, theologically, is that after Thomas saw the physical proof he did believe! (hey, what do you know, it's the same conditions I require!) So is Thomas disqualified by Jesus for his lack of belief without seeing? Is he condemned to the same fate as Judas Iscariat? No, he is not! All Jesus says is "blessed are those that believe without seeing" but in nowise are we to understand that Thomas has been excluded from salvation or even discipleship--he simply required more physical evidence to convince him than some others required, and he got it! Jesus was simply dealing with Thomas based on his individual needs in order for him to "believe." In fact, if we are to believe Mark 16:9-14 ("but when they were told [by Mary Magdala] that he [Jesus] was alive ... that she had seen him, they* [disciples] did not believe it."); and Matthew 28:17 ("they worshiped him; but some doubted."), we must conclude that Thomas was not alone in his doubt, and that others (among the eleven, no less) doubted until they had seen physical proof. It seems, then, that doubt and little faith did not* disqualify any of them from being disciples. Do yo understand my point, Amanda? Would you suggest, then, that Thomas or the other "doubting" disciples were any less "saved" than those disciples who believed without proof? (John 20:29) Keep this point in mind because we'll be revisiting it (among several other problems you have not considered) when I address your quotation of Luke 16:31 a little later on. Bruce Monson www.freethoughtfirefighters.org Adherence to Life BEFORE Death