Free Will and The Murdering Hand of God

AMANDA: God gave us free will, yet when our free will reaps evil on ourselves and others, we suddenly want God to bail us out and then turn our backs on Him when He doesn't.

BRUCE: No, Amanda, that's just people like you who want to believe that you are actually producing cause and effect changes in the world by praying to some invisible idea in the sky. Since I no longer believe in any sort of personal god, I don't expect to be "bail[ed out]" of problems by it; I rely on myself and trusted people in my life to make things happen.

As for "free will"? Well, Amanda, if that god of yours is at once "all-powerful," "all-knowing," and "all-loving," then it is impossible for you to have free will, since this god would have to know IN ADVANCE everything that will ever happen. And since he predestined it, then your actions are not free. They cannot be free. Even if you decide to do something and then "change your mind," this god would have to have known about that change from the beginning of time, and therefore it was a foregone conclusion (i.e., not free). Do you see the problem, Amanda?

AMANDA: As a Christian, if I step out of God's will and do something wrong, God will help me out of the situation and forgive me if I turn to Him, BUT I still suffer the consequences. If I murder someone and wholeheartedly repent to God, He will forgive me, but I will still go to jail as the consequence of my sin. Is that, or is that not just? God is a just God.

BRUCE: So we can agree, then, that if you or I "do something wrong," then it is indeed "just" that we ALONE should be punished for our actions, correct? I just want to make a point of your comments here (and my agreement) in advance, because I will be bringing them up again later on. Oh, by the way, one does not have to be "a Christian" to equate a cause and effect "punishment" for criminal activity (e.g., you murder someone and you go to prison).

AMANDA: I know that you have your thousands-of-stories about innocent victims and children, but you don't know further than what you see with your human eyes. There are reasons that God allows people to die, but don't hate Him because He didn't let you in on the reason.

BRUCE: I can't hate something that does not exist, Amanda. I don't "hate Him" (i.e., your professed "God") any more than I hate Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, leprechauns, or the thousands of other "one true God(s)" that have been, and continue to be, worshiped by people around the world.

And, assuming for the sake of argument that your chosen God does exist, then isn't it a bit arrogant of you to presume to speak and think for him, Amanda? Moreover, why would your god have to have "reasons" for anything?

BRUCE: Well, golly, Amanda, if someone came into my home and started raping and torturing my wife and five-year-old daughter with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch (Great quote from the movie Pulp Fiction!) until they finally died, and I just stood there and "allowed it to happen," what kind of person would that make me? Would you say I was a "loving father"? Would you say I was a "loving husband"? Would you call me "courageous"? Do you think a jury of my peers (because the law would view my apathy to be just as bad, if not worse, than the actions of the perpetrator) would be sympathetic if I claimed that "I DID DO SOMETHING . . . I PRAYED FOR THEM!"?

It's interesting that Andrea Yates (the Texas woman who murdered her five children) "prayed" for her children, but "God" told her that her children were possessed by the devil and must be killed, so over the course of several hours she drowned each child, one by one, in the bathtub!" If you are not going to hold your chosen deity to a standard of conduct at least on a par with what modern society holds for people, Amanda, then why should anyone else?

Moreover, if we take a little trip over to 2 Samuel 24 we can see your good, loving, Yahweh (i.e., Jesus, because for Christians they are one-in-the same, remember) murdering 70,000 people:

King David had apparently "sinned" by performing a census of the people (at Yahweh's direction, though), and for this abominable act, Jesus sent upon the land a pestilence that killed 70,000 people, none of whom had anything to do with David's decision in taking the census. As the story was told, even David himself saw the appalling injustice of killing 70,000 people for something he had done. Jesus didn't just "allow" these people to die, he murdered them himself! Which reminds me--doesn't this conflict with Jesus' own law outlined in Deuteronomy 24:16:

And what about Genesis 6:6-7, 7:21-23, where Jesus, unhappy with his creation, proceeds to murder (by drowning) "everything that breathes" over the entire planet, save for eight people and two (or seven) of each animal, which he piles into an ark for a year.

And what of the poor cartdriver, Uzzah, who reached out to steady the Ark of the Covenant to keep it from falling off the cart (just trying to protect it from getting damaged); the good, loving, Yahweh (i.e., Jesus) became so angry He killed Uzzah on the spot (2 Samuel 6:6-7).

Shall I continue, or is this sufficient for you to change your position on whether or not "God" actually does the killing himself, instead of just "allowing it to happen" as you contend? There are many more examples I can supply if you are not convinced. I might, for example, bring up Numbers 25-31 where the God of compassion and love wipes out 24,000 with a plague; or Numbers 16:44-49 where only 14,700 get toasted. There are many, many more! And in every case, Amanda, God doesn't just "allow" these people to die, he murders them himself!